Without sin?

[Jo Smith]

From: nellie Sent: 12/19/2001 10:28 AM
I do not wish to be 'fussy', but this is too important a subject to not discuss to its fullest. This lying teaching that after one is cleansed by Jesus, has been baptized by the Holy Ghost into the BODY of CHRIST, they are still sinners, has done more harm to the Christian life than any other thing.

For you to say that the people back under the blood of bulls and goats; which is where all O.T. people were, are in the same catagory (as far as sinning is concerned) as the person who is washed by the blood of Jesus, is pure blasphemy!!!

I ask you to give the verses which say this.

The Word is full of verses which say right the opposite!!!!

Romans 5: 19--For as by one man's disobedience MANY were made sinners, so by the obedience of ONE shall MANY be made RIGHTEOUS.

Now, do you see that he said by one (Jesus) MANY ARE MADE RIGHTEOUS??

But you are saying that these whom Jesus made RIGHTEOUS are the self-righteous?

No one thinks that we NEVER did sin and NEVER did need forgiveness---but the Word says that the sinner ONCE PURGED has no more counsious of sins.

v21--That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through RIGHTEOUSNESS unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Now, if one continues to be in sin, they will be in death; they will not have eternal life. One has to be RIGHTEOUS to gain eternal life.

Even in the O.T., Job was said to be a PERFECT man.

Enoch was said to have pleased God.

In Luke 1:6--we are told that both Zacharias and Elisabeth were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord BLAMELESS.

See, these two people were RIGHTEOUS before God, and they had not even been washed by the blood of Jesus.

So, it is to no praise to Jesus for one to say He cannot make one righteous and blameless.

Romans 6: 2---How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
v7--For he that is dead is freed from sin.
v8--Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him.
v12--Let not sin therefore reign in your MORTAL body, that ye should obey it in the lists thereof.

Yet, you are telling people to keep on sinning; to let sin be in their MORTAL body.

Hebrews said the blood of bulls and goats could never take away sins; but the blood of Jesus did.

YOu people saying these things, should quit listening to false teachers, and study what the Word of God really says on this matter.

CHRISTIANS ARE NOT SINNERS.

SINNERS ARE NOT CHIRSTIANS.

Nellie

[Jo Smith]

From: nellie Sent: 12/19/2001 3:17 PM
People have the wrong idea about what is sin and what is not. I say it does a lot of harm to teach that Christians can never get free of sin. This tears down their hope and therefore their drive to become perfected.

Heb. 10:14--For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
v17--And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
v18--Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

If ---IF--ONE HAS BEEN BAPTIZED in the NAME OF JESUS, according to Acts 2:38--for the REMISSION of sins, the above is true of them = their sins have been remitted---therefore there is no more offering for sin. It is not necessary.

God does not impute sin to those who have been baptized the right way, and have been Baptized with the Holy Ghost. For then, we become a member of the body of Christ; and there is NO sin in the body of Christ.

It is a great understanding that only God can give. But, to say these people are still in sin and cannot get free of sin, is grave harm to the Christian teaching.

If one does do something wrong, then they will immediately repent and get this out of their life. This way, they go on and GROW UP IN CHRIST. I think 'growing up' is what you are reaching for; and thinking that you are still sinning when really you are not sinning

It is like a baby; we do not (at least right minded parents ) beat and disown our baby because they do not know how to make his bed. No. We understand that the child will eventually grow to this. It is the same with God. He know we are not fully able to do all the things available to us as His children.

BUT, and I emphasize this---a true, Holy Ghost filled Christian is NOT going to go out and commit adultry, murder, theft, tell lies, hate someone, etc. This is not Christian living. If one does these things, they have never known God. The Word says people doing these things will not inherit the kingdom of God. That is unless, they repent; which means to give up those sins and turn to Jesus for deliverance.

To deny the ability of Jesus to deliver is to call him a failure.

I am not saying, a young Christian will not have trials, and in our eyes, fail. But, in God's eyes, that person is perfected forever---IF --if he is a true child of God.

But, the Word does NOT teach that we must sin. And neither should we teach this.

Nellie

[Jo Smith]

From: nellie Sent: 12/21/2001 1:04 PM
Spiritwalker,
Please do not fall prey to this kind of evil. This man is an enemy of God and His Word. Don't you see that he admitted, that to cast such doubt on the Word, is to leave him not knowing what to believe? That is where all will get, who entertain such doubts and lies against God's Word.

I think that thing of some churches willfully handling snakes has been grossly 'blown-up' or is lies altogether. If some have done this, I don't believe it has been many. I have never personally known any that did this. Any way, it is NOT what God's Word was speaking of.

You will see, that Jesus called evil, false religious men 'serpents'. The word serpent has a meaning of an evil man. This rod is a very good example of one of them. He is a snake, a serpent, and one I would love to see removed from this community. He is trying to throw as much doubt against God's Word as he possibly can.

Jesus is speaking of the time we will take these evil 'serpents' up and do away with them; then they will not be able to harm God's children; as they have been doing for all the church time. God will give his last true Church the power to take them up and do away with them. If some people misunderstood this, and tried to actually pick up snakes, that does not make the Word of God a lie.

If one calls God's Word a lie; or doubts it, he will have absolutely no faith. He will end up in HELL. The church is being 'shook' right now. The 'floods' of Rev. are coming against her. If you fall prey to this and are shaken, you will loose your soul. You need to be strongly anchered on the true Rock, the Word of God, or you will be like the house on the sand. It will fall.

If you have doubts about any of the Word, ask God to give you unshakable faith.

Nellie

[Jo Smith]

From: nellie Sent: 12/21/2001 4:05 PM
I wish to thank the managers for deleting that very ugly, and doubtful message against the precious Word of God.

Now, I wish to address something to you. I may not be getting your meaning in the things you are saying about 'brideling' your tongues. It seems to me, as I read many of the posts in this community, ( and of course, it is in many others also) that some of you feel it is wrong to 'debate' the word of God and to show the sheep who is a wolf among them.

This is nothing but a 'scare' tatic by Satan to HUSH up the Christians whom God has given understanding to, in order to be able to lead the sheep to the place of 'safety'.

Satan has successfully caused most outspoken Christians to become afraid to speak up in the last few years. This is very unfortunate; for if we be quiet on important issues, Satan will have open field to deceive the saints in.

If we just say, I must 'love' and not expose error--- where is that love? If we say, I must 'love' and not expose the wolves who come in to devour the sheep, how is this love?

If every body knew the truth of the Word, certainly there would be no need for 'debate'. But, since the church has been taken into total darkness, someone has to 'fight' to help bring them into light.

This is a very great weakness and deception to think that we must not expose evil---either evil, false teachings or evil men. Certainly, the disciples did debate the Word; they certainly did expose wolves and call them by name.

That is what I meant by telling you that we MUST have judgment. If we cannot judge what is right and wrong; how are we going to know a devil from a saint? How are you ever going to know that you have truth?

John 10: 12--But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and LEAVETH the sheep, and FLEETH; and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. v13--The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

See, it is the ones who care NOT for the sheep who FLEE, and do not stay and 'fight' the wolf and warn the sheep; so the sheep are not scattered and killed.

Paul and John and others warned the sheep of wolves; called them by name. Do you think they were wrong? How did they know? They had JUDGMENT. Without it, you fall prey to any and every thing Satan slings your way.

True love cares for the sheep.(not the wolves)
Nellie

[Jo Smith]

From: authenticlyaudible (Original Message) Sent: 12/20/2001 12:22 AM
Nellie you need to study into righteousness.

We do not need to be righteous but we do need to except the righteousness of Jesus. For "the righteousness of man (without specification to saved or unsaved) is as a filthy rag in the sight of God. ''

God does not and will not ever justify the righteousness of man. that is what you are stating esentially.

When you make the accusation that that it is being said that " those Jesus made righteous are the self-righteous " you are not having any discernment between the two kinds of righteousness.

Those whom Jesus made righteous are not self righteous because the righteousness he gives is not owned by those whom he gives it to it is simply posessed by them. They are covered by it. reside in it.

If anyone would have been righteous in the manner you are speaking of it would have been Paul but Paul said that his righteousness is not his own righteousness but it is Christ which liveth in him." So in conclusion Nellie it would seem that you need to reevaluate your perspective on righteousness.

Tom if you read this thank you for reminding me of what Paul said about himself and the righteousness he has which is not his own.


***********
From: nellie Sent: 12/20/2001 4:18 PM
Sir, (or madam?), You seem to 'assume' a lot of things which have NOT been stated. For I have NEVER thought, nor have I said that I or anyone else could have righteousness of our own accord. Just WHERE did you arrive at such a thought?

But, you are saying that even AFTER Jesus cleanses us by His blood and gives us His Holy Spirit, that we are still sinners. Sir, I say that is in total error.

The Word says He that DOETH righteousness is righteous. 1John 3:7--Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness IS RIGHTEOUS, EVEN AS HE IS RIGHTEOUS.

So, it would seem to me, that maybe your teaching falls into this catagory of 'deceiving'.

Although, I doubt if you are trying to deceive; you are probable just not as knowledgable in the Word yet, as you should be.

Read this: Luke 1:^---(speaking of Zacharias and Elisabeth)---And they were both RIGHTEOUS before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

See, even BEFORE Jesus shed His blood, these two people were RIGHTEOUS.

It is said of Job that he was a perfect man. Abraham is the 'father' of the righteous. He believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness; so if I believe God, is that not counted to me as righteousness?

Why are you against being righteous? Why go to all this trouble to tell Christians that they are still sinners? What do you have against us being righteous? Surely we know it is not our own righteousness; but Jesus gave us His righteousness? Then If I have His righteousness, is that not my righteousness?

Nellie

From: nellie Sent: 12/20/2001 9:18 PM
You are just not understanding what I am saying. I made it clear that I do not say we have righteousness apart from the righteousness Jesus gave us. But, when Jesus gives us righteousness, then that is my righteousness. If not, then you cannot claim salvation; for that too is a give from him.

If Jesus makes us righteous, we are righteous; and if he does not make you righteous, you are not a Christian.

But, we do not believe we were righteous of our own accord; it came from His indwelling Spirit.

One verse says He took our sins and gave us his righeouseness.
Eph. 5: 9--For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth.

So you see, righteousness is of the fruit of the Spirit; how else could we have it?

You are not giving Jesus the glory due Him, when you say he does not make his children righteous and Holy.

I do hope you can finally see what I am saying and what the truth of this matter really is. It is the false church teaching the world that they can never be free of sins and be righteous. This is because they desire to keep sinning and still have heaven later. It will not work. The reason they cannot quit sinning is because they do NOT receve the Holy Ghost.

Did you read that Scripture in Luke 1 where I showed that Zach. and Eliz. were righteous? What do you think of that?

Nellie

[Jo Smith]

From: joie Sent: 12/10/2001 8:02 PM
Matt. 6: 9-15

After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heven.

Give us this day our daily bread.

And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also for give you:

But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father for give your trespasses.

Father, I ask your blessings on this and every community which is truly trying to lift you up and glorify you. May each one who is to oversee this community be led of your Spirit. Keep each member in your protection and may they know your will.

Keep the enemies of you and your people away. Let your truth prevail.

Your handmaid,

Jo

[Jo Smith]

From: joie Sent: 12/8/2001 9:59 PM
Dear Auth.

I think you are misunderstanding something here. What I said about the flag is meaning this: Our country, the USA, cannot save us. Our military cannot save us. Our prosperity cannot save us. Our knowledge cannot save us. Our president cannot save us. Our flag cannot save us.

What I am saying is: the country is looking to the wrong thing; it is crying to the 'rocks' and 'mountains' to save us. They cannot do it.

They are flying flags to the extent of making them idols; because they think this will save us, or help save us. It will only anger God more at us and cause more destruction.

Only God can save us. If we want deliverence, we must start lifting up Jesus. If all those people flying 'flags' would have things up about praising Jesus, then He would be honoured and send us His help.

Now, about those 'natural' people you think are God's chosen: no that is not the truth. Even in the O.T. days, God was NEVER pleased with them.

Those people over there in that land are not the Jews. They are not God's people. Nothing of God revolves around them. They are no more than any other warring people on this earth. If you look to the flesh, anywhere, you will miss God.

Read Galatians 4. v25--says that Hagar and Ishmael, are the mount Sinai in Arabia (the law; bondage)-- answereth to Jerusalem which now is--- v26---But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

v30---What saith the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

The freewoman is the church. Her children are the true Jews. He is not a Jew which of one outward; he is a Jew which is one inward.

All the promises to restore Israel, were fulfilled on the day of Pentecost. The first move of God to the Church, was to the Isralites. They were the first brought in. That is their fulfillment. We are one. There are no flesh children. God said they of the flesh are NOT the children of God.

This is a blind spot and one of the most misunderstood things in the Word. It is a stumbling block to the Christians.

The blood bought, blood washed, believing Christians are God's only people.

Jo

[Jo Smith]

From: joie Sent: 12/10/2001 8:57 PM
I want to show you something that is hidden and hard to see in this Scripture.

Exodus 33-- v3--God tell the Isralites they are a stiffnecked people..
v5--He repeats this and threatens to come up in a moment and consume them..
v7--Moses removes the tabernacle far off from the camp (here God is removing himself from them).

From then on, only Moses and Joshua and the High Priest ever entered into the Glory of God.

V11-God speaks face to face, as friend to Moses.

v12--Moses says to God, you have said, I know thee by name, and thou hast also found grace in my sight.

This ties God 'knowing thee by name' with finding Grace in His sight together.

v13--Moses says to God, If I have found grace in thy sight, show me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight: and consider that this nation is thy people.

Moses is NOT making a statement that the nation is His people; he is pleading for this to be the case!

v14--And he said , My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest. (speaking only to Moses).
v15--And he said unto him, If thy presence go not with me, carry us not up hence.

v16--For wherein shall it be known here that I AND THY PEOPLE HAVE FOUND GRACE IN THY SIGHT? is it not in that thou goest with us? so shall we be separated, I and thy people, from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.

v17--And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for THOU hast found grace in my sight, and I know THEE by name.

v18--And he said, I beseech thee, show me thy glory.
v19--....I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.

v21--God placed Moses on a rock =Christ. while my glory passeth by, I will put thee in a cleft of the ROCK, and will cover thee with my hand, while I pass by: and I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

Moses interceeded several times here, for God to say the Isralites were His people, and that they had found Grace; but God never did say this. He kept repeating that Moses had found grace; Moses was the only one of them God knew by name.

Moses was the only one of them God showed His glory to . God showed Moses grace; but the others only had and saw LAW.

In verse 17--after Moses has said I and thy people several times to God, God reiterated that Moses had found grace; Moses never spoke of it again; he let it go; he accepted that God had NOT accepted his plea; God had not given that nation grace; God had NOT made that nation His people.

Go back to chapter 32---
Read 5-14-- God was angry at the people for their worship of the golden calf; He told Moses to get out of His way and let Him destroy that nation of stiff-necked, hard-hearted people.

But, Moses pleaded with God not to do this. It was only for His name sake and the fact that Moses had found grace, that God did not destroy them all right there.

The Law makes people hard-hearted- and stiff-necked. It is darkness; it is death; it blinds them.

That nation, to whom God only gave darkness, blindness, law, death was NOT and IS NOT and NEVER WILL BE GOD'S CHOSEN PEOPLE.

The glory Moses saw, the N.T. Church, the Grace people, the life, the light, the soft-hearted, the obedient Christians, blood washed by Jesus--- this is what God showed Moses in that clift of the Rock. Moses was NOT under LAW; BUT THAT NATION OF ISRAEL WAS.

That nation in darkness, hard-heardness, stiff-necked people IS NOT THE CHOSEN OF GOD.

God only used them to show the world what LAW, darkness, blindness, hard-heardness, stiff-necked, disobedient, without faith, people are and what is their eternal destination.

God's chosen nation and people are described in Peter's books as the Royal nation, the perculiar, chosen nation; HE SAID THOSE WHO HAD NOT BEEN A PEOPLE = THE GENTILES---were this royal priesthood.

Read 1 Peter 2: 5-12---
v7&8 show that the builders (that nation of Israel) had rejected the true corner stone (Jesus); they were disobedient--WHEREUNTO ALSO THEY WERE APPOINTED.

(I will be merciful unto whom I will; and whom I will, I harden).

v9---But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

v10---(this is important--people, GET THIS!)----
Which in time past WERE NOT A PEOPLE, but are NOW the PEOPLE OF GOD: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained Mercy.

Now, WHO is that speaking of?

Notice, back in Ex. 32- when Moses was interceding to God not to destroy Israel, he reminded God of his promise to Abraham---God had told Abraham he would make his seed as the sand of the sea and the stars: most people think this means those natural children; but no, Abraham was the Father of the faithful---
Those people were NEVER faithful---
That is what God wanted Moses and all the earth to see---those natural children were NOT that promised seed---the Christians were---the children of Jesus.

It was the Gentiles who had been told, You are not my people, It was them who had not been a people; then it is them who are now the people of God. It is the Christians who are the seed of Abraham that God wanted to save. They are the ones who received Grace. We are the ones God knows by name.

We are the ones on the Rock; we are the ones who fulfilled the promise of God to Abraham; those who are Christ's; those are the children of Abraham. We are the true Jews.

Gal 3:29.
The children of the flesh are NOT counted for the seed; they are NOT the children of God or of Abraham.

Get those natural, fleshly, hard-hearted, stiff-necked people out of your minds; they are not the children of God. We, the Christian are.

Jo