About Jesus

[Jo Smith]

From: joie (Original Message) Sent: 7/23/2001 1:20 PM
To know the truth of who Jesus is, is of such importance, that I am doing another study on this subject. For, if you know this truth, it will prove all the other doctrines weather they are true or false. This proves the truth of the trinity and also the Jesus only doctrines.

In this study I am dwelling only on a few Scriptures which tell exactly what the people in the Scripture believed about who Jesus was. Of course, there are many more, but I picked out a few to show this matter. I offer a challenge to those who believe trinity to show even one Scripture which says that Jesus was the Second person in the Godhead; and that he was equal with the Father; of the same ‘substance’. And as I have said before, if it is not written in the Word of God, it is not correct; whose word are you believing?

In order to shorten this, I will not be quoting ; just telling briefly what each one says.

Matt.16:13-19---Jesus asked Peter whom do you say that I am. Peter says you are the Christ, the Son of the Living God. Then Jesus says this revelation is the true foundation of the Church. So I say you must get this correct, to even start building your ‘house’ on the true Rock.

Notice, Peter did not say You are the Second Person in the Godhead. Nor did he say you are God. This is also in Mark 8:27-29.

John 6:14--here they said Jesus was that prophet that should come.

v69-----And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. Here again, Peter makes the same confession of faith; not one word of Jesus being God; nor the Second person.

John 11:27---Here Martha said I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God...-----See, she had gotten the same belief as Peter. Jesus did not correct her; he let this confession stand.

Acts 2:30---Here Peter preached that God had sworn with an oath to David that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, God would raise up Christ. So this proves that Jesus was of the flesh of David; therefore he was human.

v36 says that God made Jesus both Lord and Christ. It did not say God made him another person in the Godhead.

Acts 5:31---This says God exalted with his right hand Jesus to be a Prince and a Saviour. God made him that.

Romans 1:3, 4---Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; (see agreeing with what was said in Acts 2:32)

v4---And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.

Now, notice, it did not say he was declared to be God, nor a Second person.

Romans 8:3---says God sent his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to do what the law could not do.

1Cor.11:3---But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD.

Now there is the Godhead explained: it is the order of authority. So this plainly states that God is in authority over Christ. So, how are they the very same?

That is borne out again in 1Cor.15:24, 28---Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

v28--And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

This shows the Son being subject to the Father for eternity; this is the headship; the Father is in authority over the Son. And yet, he gave his all the same power and authority as he himself has.

Gal. 4:4---...God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law.

This also calls Jesus God’s Son; not a second person nor God; it also shows that Jesus lived under the law; that is why He had to obey the law.

Phil.2:11--says every tongue should confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. This does not say we will all have to confess Jesus to be the second person of the Godhead.

Col. 1:13--- v12 says giving thanks to the Father.....v13---who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son.

v15--says he is the IMAGE OF the invisible God; did not say he is the invisible God; nor the second person.

Heb.1:5---For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou are my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Heb.2:17---Wherefore in all things it behooved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

How can you fit Jesus in as God or a second person in this verse? He is a high priest in things PERTAINING to God.

1John 1:3---....truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. Couldn’t be plainer; he made a distinction between the Father and His Son here.

1John 2:22---Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Now did this say if we deny that Jesus is a second person or that he is God? No!!! It says if we deny that he is the Christ; the very same revelation that Peter had; that all the rest had.

1John 3:8--says the Son of God was manifested..v23---says we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ....once again calling Jesus God’s Son; not God or a second person.

1John 4:9---This says God manifested his love toward us by sending his only begotten Son. It did not say that God himself came; said he sent his Son.

v10---says God sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. v12 says no man hath seen God at any time; but plenty of people saw Jesus.

v14---And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

v15---Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. See how important it is to confess that Jesus is the Son of God; now where did it say to confess that Jesus is God; where did it say confess that Jesus is the Second person in a Godhead? Maybe you should rethink what you are confessing.

1John 5:1--Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God...

v5---Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Once again it said to believe that Jesus is the Son of God; now don’t you think that if we are to believe that Jesus is God; if we are to believe that Jesus is the second person that God could have and would have told us?

v10---He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself; he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

v11--And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

v12--He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

13---These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

v20---And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. Here it is speaking of God the Father.

Now, in all those verses it declares that our eternal life in in believing that Jesus is the Son of God. So, I think this is very serious. Those of you who believe that Jesus is God and those who believe he is the Second person in a Godhead, you should study this and see if you can find some Scripture saying what you say. If not, it could keep you from having eternal life. You must believe the truth to be saved; and the truth is that Jesus is the Son of God.

If this many Scriptures say the same thing, that Jesus is God’s Son; not God himself and not a second person; and you can’t find even one saying that he is God or a second person, then you obviously are not believing the record that God gave of his Son. To deny that record is to call God a liar. That is dangerous stuff.

Now for our last Scripture; Rev. 1: 5---And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. ...Now that is a lot of things describing who Jesus is, but not one word of his being God or a second person. I wonder why???

v13---And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man.... here he is called the Son of man in the midst of the churches.

So, where is he called God in the church or the second person??

Now, there you have a lot of Scripture declaring who Jesus is. I found not one that said he is God, nor that he is a second person in a Godhead. The only Scripture that refers to him as God is saying he is our God. That he is, but that is not saying he is God; only that he is our God; as Thomas said My Lord and My God. This does not mean that he is God; only that he is our God. God is his God. God is his Father. If one can’t see that from this many Scriptures, you just don’t believe the record that God gave of his Son.

Jo Smith

[Jo Smith]

If you are sincere, may God help YOU to see the real truth. No where in my message did I even imply that we are not to worship the Holy Father. You miss the whole message. God said for us to worship his Son and honour Him even as we honour the Father. There is no silly, earthly type 'jealously' or self-centeredness between Jesus and His Father. We worship God through Jesus. You can not go directly to the Father; you must go through Jesus. But, when we worship one of them, we also worship the other.

They are not 'divided' as we are; they are in totally harmony and agreement; that is what is meant by being 'one'.

If you and any others who read this will only open your heart and pray and study the word and let God speak to you, you can come to the truth and get free of the false doctrines that have dominated the church world for hundreds of years.

The false doctrine has blinded almost every one. There is no power in the darkness; that is why the church world today is a dead form.

If you insist on trying to make the human man Jesus to be God, you are guilty of saying God had to pray; God had to fast to have power; that sinful man KILLED God. I think you really should try to think about that a while; that God died!! That is impossible.

[Jo Smith]

From: joie (Original Message) Sent: 7/11/2001 9:34 PM
To all who are interested in this teaching of Jesus being the Son of God and not God himself: please read this message carefully and prayerfully. I am not trying to confuse anyone, or to put anyone down over what you now believe. I am only trying to help the true sheep of God find the true pasture. The false shepherds of the land have taken the sheep into polluted pastures. So says God’s Word. Read Eze. 34 it tells how the shepherds are the one who led the sheep astray.

First, I want to say I am not of any denomination. I am not a Jehovah’s Witness or anything of that nature. I am not in heresy or any other thing against Jesus.

I know all of you sincerely believe you are acting in defense of Jesus. I understand that and respect you for that. I once thought just as you do right now. But, through many, many years of studying only the King James Scriptures, not any other man made books, and earnestly seeking for God to show me the truth, He himself began to open my understanding to the truth of his Word. I can assure you, it is totally different from what the church world, any of them, teach.

The reason for this is this: After the first church, born at Pentecost, the apostles and their converts, were gone, then came the great falling away. The Catholic leaders began to wrest the Scripture and changed all the true teachings. That is what Daniel spoke of when he said they cast the truth to the ground and trampled it for a long time.

The real truth, that I am teaching now, is not the teachings of the sleeper church. It is the teaching of the apostles. This has not been taught since that church was off the earth. You can tell this by checking what all the church world has taught since that time. The Catholic Church started the doctrine of the trinity. The apostles did not teach that. If you think they did, find one scripture that states that Jesus is a second person in Godhead. I can not find that in the Word. Find one scripture that states the Holy Ghost is a third person in Godhead. I can not find that either. The Holy Ghost is the spirit of Jesus come back into us.

He said as the Father has life in himself and quickeneth whom he will, so has he given to the Son to have life in himself to quicken whom he will. God could send his spirit on people, as evidenced in the O. T. So, he gave that same power to his Son, Jesus. When Jesus went back to heaven to the Father, God gave him the same power and authority he himself had. No one else will ever be placed in this position. This placed Jesus on the throne of God. Meaning he could do all things God could do. Therefore, he could send his spirit back on us.

My first message on this is full of Scripture. How can you call that many scriptures wrong? So, I am not going to quote scripture in this message, to save space, but only talk to you. You know the Word well enough to know I am staying with the Word.

Those of you saying Jesus are 100% God and 100%man, I ask you where is one Scripture saying that? If it is not written in the word, you believe a lie. That is the trinity doctrine. Saying there are three equal persons, each one God. If this is true, as they say they are all three of the same substance and equal in all ways, then you would have to say that God also is man. But the word says God is not a man. The word says God is a spirit. It says even after the resurrection, Jesus was still not a spirit.

What you do not realize is that to say Jesus came here, as God is to deny the real true work and essence of Jesus. He went through everything exactly as we do, as a human, not God. If he had been God, what glory or marvel would there have been in the great things he did? How would he have shown us how we are to do? He was our pattern son. You fail to really see the greatness of what he did for us. He left his glory he had with the Father in the beginning, and came here in the form of a servant.

In Phil 2:5-11---we are told that in the beginning he was there in heaven in the form of God. He left that image and came here fashioned as a man, in the form of a servant. It does not say he was God in that state. If he were God, he could not have been tempted in all points as we are. God cannot be tempted. What glory would there have been in him feeding the multitude??? God made the worlds. Jesus, in his heavenly state, created this dust world, not the spiritual world. So, it would be no marvel for God to do that. The glory is that Jesus did it by faith in God, just as we would have to do. When he healed blind eyes, that would have been no marvel for God, the glory was that Jesus did it by faith in God. Same as when he raised the dead. How would he have shown us how to do it, if he did it as God? He did it by faith.

This does not belittle Jesus. Rather, it is more glory to him. He could have sinned and failed just as Adam did, but he did not. What glory is that, if he were God? God cannot sin. God did not impart the essence of God into him when he was conceived in the womb by the Holy Ghost. He came here in the same state we are in; made in all points like unto his brethern. If he were God, then we would have had to be God also for this to be true.

If he had been God, he would not have had to pray. Why would a God have to pray?

When he said my Father and I are one, it means the same thing as when Paul said in Gal. that we are all one. Husband and wife are one. He prayed in John 17 that we would all be one AS THEY ARE ONE. Does not mean we are to become one and the same being. Means to be in agreement. Have like mind. Not fight and cross each other.

1Cor.11 says God is the head of Christ. This means God is in authority over Jesus will be through eternity. This does not belittle Jesus. Any more than saying Jesus is our head belittles us.

Jesus is our God, our Father, our Savior, our access to God, his Father, our physician, everything we need. His blood is the only way we can be cleansed from sin.

If you try to bypass Jesus, you cannot get to God. John 17:2-3----As thou hast given him (this is one being saying another being gave something to him; If Jesus were God, why would this have had to be given to him?) Power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal. That they might know thee the only true God, AND Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Now, notice that Jesus himself is praying here to his Father and called him (the Father) the only true God. If you deny that, you call Jesus himself a liar.

God was IN Christ reconciling the world unto himself. Did not say God was Christ; said God was in Christ. Jesus was given the spirit without measure. Jesus is in us. Does that make us Jesus??? No No no.

The sleeper church started all the false doctrines. All churches either teaches Jesus are God and he only; or else they teach God is three persons. The apostles did not teach any of that. That was the first true witness of Jesus. Now, at the end of time, there will come another true witness, teaching the truth. That is what I am teaching, the same thing the apostles taught. The false church cast the truth to the ground, and it has been trodden under foot ever since that day. Every time some one came up with the truth, they were killed. Now, people are still fighting this truth to come forth. But, God will send this truth out in spite of all the blind ones who fight to stop it. If the trinity is true, why is the sleeper church teaching it?? If Jesus only is true why are so many teaching it? The majority will never see the truth. Jesus said only a few would find the strait, narrow way that leads to life eternal; said many would seek to find it, but would fail.

I appreciate all who are reading and responding to this message. I truly hope this additional message will help you see this great truth.

Jo and Wanna

[Jo Smith]

I think it is hard for people to see that we are not saying that Jesus is not our God now. If you will notice in the message We brought that out; that he is our God now. But in Heb.1:8, 9--we are told that this is because God set Him there. "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the septre of thy kingdom.

v9---Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even THY GOD hate ANOINTED THEE with the oil of goadness above thy fellows.

This shows that God, the Father anointed and made Jesus, his resurrected Son to be God with himself.

The flesh man Jesus was not God while here in 1st man Adam flesh; made in all points like unto sinful man. This is hard for people to see; it makes them think they are being somehow unfaithful to Jesus, because they have always been taught that he was God. But, it is right the opposite; to say that he was God is to do away with the wondorous thing that he obeyed God and never sinned, tho tempted in all points like unto man.

If he had been God before the resurrection, he could never have died. God is a spirit and cannot die. He is forever eternal.

We will teach more on this as time goes by; for it is so very inportant for the true sheep of God to see the whole truth. Jesus died and went into hell for us. As God he could never have done this.

He is our God and our Father , but God the Father is his head. That is the God Head; it is how the authority is allotted out.

Feel free to say all you wish to on this or any other subject and God bless you.

Jo

[Jo Smith]

From: joie Sent: 7/12/2001 3:48 PM
Now, you are making too many statements that are not in the Word. For one, 'incarnate'. That is not Scriptual. It is man-made doctrine.

The word Lord is not the same as LORD. Lord, is the Son, LORD is the Father. There is also a word spelled lord; this refers to a mere man lord.

When it said they crucified the Lord of Glory, it did not mean they killed God. Man can not kill God. That is blasphemy. God made Jesus both Lord and Christ. If he were God, why did God have to make him Lord? Think about this.

Now, remember that on the cross, Jesus cried out, My God, My God, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME ?

See, God had LEFT Jesus before he died. God did not die when Jesus died. That can not be.

Another thing, the Word never says that God became a man. It never says that God put on human flesh. It never said that God 'robed' himself in human flesh or any other such statement.

Men have just taught this stuff so long, that people assume it is true. But, dear people, it is not true.

If Jesus had faught Satan as God, just as you said, what merrit would that have been. But He faught and won against sin, as a human man. That is what it was all about. We had to be redeemed by another human; a kinsman redeemer.

I have explained before that the word was made not human flesh---- but heavenly BREAD spirit flesh--- spirit bread for us to eat to have eternal life.

Do you think he meant for us to acutally bite and chew up his human flesh? Surely not.

God bless this to your understanding.

Jo

[Jo Smith]

From: joie Sent: 7/14/2001 11:43 AM
I want to say to Child of God, that the message on the Son of God was written before God showed me the mystery of the many membered God kingdom. I did not see that when I first typed this message; and I did not read it before i posted it. So i was doing what most people do until God sends true revelation; I was going on what I had already been taught. But I have learned by experience that when God reveals something to me, it disproves all that was taught before it.

Now, to Ekklesia

My brother, the very Scripture you are using about the day God begott Jesus in His own likeness and image proves that what I am saying is the correct revelation. Look at it a little closer: it is saying that the day of the RESURRECTION is the day He was begotten of God.

Acts 13:33---God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou are my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

This says that the day of the resurrection is the day this psalm was fulfilled; this was the day God begott Jesus.

v34--And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

v35---Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt NOT suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Now, I know this is totally different from anything previously taught by the 'churches'; but look at what this Word says; v34--shows that before the RESURRECTION of Jesus, he had been corruptible; but v35--says God would not permit his Holy One to see corruption.

So, what is it saying? It is saying that before the RESURRECTION Jesus was a corruptible man; but AFTER the RESURRECTION He is the Holy One of God; in God's likeness and image: NOT CORRUPTIBLE.

The Holy One of God never did at any time see corruption. This is not saying that he had no normal corruption in that grave; it is saying that this Holy One The Resurrected, Begotten Son of God has NEVER had or seen corruption!!!!!

He never was corruptible!!

So, now where does that leave us? The Truth is that Mary's Son, was a human being, born of the seed of David through his Mother's genes, that were somehow activated by God.

Mary's Son was called the Son of Man. Made in ALL points like unto us.

That Son did not create anything. That Son did not exist in the beginning. He said himself The Things concerning me have an end. Luke 22:37---For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

He is saying here that the person, the corruptible person that he was, the person reckoned with us transgressors would have an end. Now if it had an end, it had to have also had a beginning.

The one who created the world had no beginning or ending. So that was not the human man Christ Jesus. Christ Jesus had a beginning and an ending. THIS is the great mystery.

That human man was exactly like us; made from the seed of Abraham. He died and then was resurrected or as you said changed. That is exactly what I am teaching!!!! That he was Changed!!! Just as we will be Changed!!! My Lord!!! Look at what it is saying!!!!! Jesus was Changed into the image of God at the RESURRECTION. Every thing about him was changed. This changed Son is the Begotten Son of God.

Please, all of you carefully read Romans 1:3-4--Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David ACCORDING TO THE FLESH;

v4 And declared to be the SON OF GOD with power, according to the spirit of holiness, BY THE RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD.

I don't know how to put it any plainer. God raised up a flesh man, Jesus, Mary's Son, and put the Word of God in this man. He brought us God's Word, that is the FLESH that we eat to have Eternal life. The Word. The Word created everything; not the flesh man.

The flesh man was the litteral son of man = he was made of human seed; we just got through reading it out of God's Word. Romans 1:3---...made of the SEED of david according to the flesh.

See, the flesh man was MADE OF THE SEED of David; therefore that man was not eternal; he was not in the beginning; the Word was in the beginning. The things concerning me (Jesus) have an end. It ended the day God raised him out of that Grave; brought him back into the glory the Word had with God in the beginning; but this time it was a glorified Human being; the very first time this had happened; the first begotten from the dead. The very first human being to be begotten into the likeness and image and glory of the Father. He is our pattern Son. He is the only one of his kind right now.

Not until the resurrection of the saints will another person from the son kingdom be brought forth in the likeness and image of God. We are NOT in the image of God now; we are in the image of sinful man. Jesus came here in the likeness of sinful man. That was not God!!!

I will declare it until I come forth in his likeness and image. He said in psalm 17:15---As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.

This was Jesus talking; not David. People think the psalms are David's words; no, they are the words of Jesus.

See, there it shows that the resurrection from the dead is what gives us the likeness of God; not the first birth; for if the first birth is the likeness of God we would have no need for a second birth. The resurrection is the second birth.

Sure, Ekklesia, that is the change we are both talking about. But, the very fact that this is when we are changed, proves also that Jesus was not God, before the resurrection. He is on the throne of God now as God himself. No there are not degrees of one being better or more powerful than the other; they are in equality; that is what being ONE means.

Jo

[Jo Smith]

From: joie Sent: 7/16/2001 10:38 AM
God said Jesus took on him the SEED of Abraham and David; David was from the tribe of Judah. This means that the very human body of Jesus came from the blood line of Judah. God does not go by man-made laws. He set all the true laws.

Jesus said My Father is greater than; that is not saying they were co-equals. The very catholic church that you ,Steve, seemingly fight so much; is the one who started the teaching of Trinity. The Apostles sure did not teach that.

You have studied that mythology stuff enough to know that their 'deity' was always a triune god. the very word, triune is from mythologhy. It is certainly not scriptual. Show me where it is in the Word of God.

Jesus said My Father is greater than I. That does not show to be co-equal. It is a lie of Rome. Jesus said the things concerning me have an end. God will never have an end. Better study the Word some, instead of all that other stuff.

When God reveals the truth to the world, that God is a kingdom of many members, then all will see the folly and foolishness of this trinity teaching; for it conveys the idea that God is what??? One person, then another person, then another person; hence only 3 beings.

Then I ask all, how is our kingdom in his likeness? How is Christ ( a many membered Church) the image of God?

Better pray for some understanding. Study, instead of fighting someone to whom God has revealed the truth to.

Jo

[Jo Smith]

From: joie Sent: 7/17/2001 11:22 AM
You are bringing in some very good Scriptures on this subject. Thank you for this study. I consider it one of the most important subjects to learn the truth about.

We can not study this enough. Not meaning it would never profit; meaning it is worthy of much study.

When it speaks of ONE God, it is speaking of total unity of all the members of that kingdom. So, Of course when Jesus was placed on the throne of Heaven, he was one with them. It is not a divided kingdom. It is not speaking of numbers. That is what confuses most people; they think it means the number 1. It does not.

Yes there is more than one beginning. For there were more than one world.

The world before the flood was one example of this.

Now, I see that Jesus came to this earth in total human flesh; from the family of Judah. This was not adoption; it is where his natural flesh came from. That is the first birth. The adoption pertains to the second birth. Romans 8:23---And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the REDEMPTION OF OUR BODY.

See, that is speaking of the resurrection; the time of the redemption of out natural body: this is the second birth.

So, in Jesus' first human birth, he was of the natural seed of Judah. The Scripture is very plain on this. I may not under stand the way the geneogology is, but I do understand this; when it says he took on him the seed of David; and also, when it says if he were on earth, he would not be a priest; for the earthly priest were Levities; Jesus was of Judah of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

So, this plainly says that if Jesus' priesthood were an earthly priesthood, he would not have been one; for he was NOT of the tribe of Levi.

The word 'deity' is not Scriptual. Look it up in the concordance; it is not there. So, I was told by God not to use terms not in the Word. This word comes from idol gods.

Jesus was not God until after the resurrection; when He was given that name by inheritance; the earthly man was 'adopted' into the Heavenly family.

If he and God are one and the same, why did he say to Mary, after the resurrection, Touch me not, for I have not ASCENDED TO MY FATHER AND MY GOD.?

I find no place in Scripture where the Father called Jesus His God. He did call him God in Heb.1--- but he did not say My God. There are quite a few places where Jesus called Him My God.

Jo

[Jo Smith]

From: joie Sent: 7/18/2001 2:34 PM
John 17:3---And this is life eternal, that they might know THEE the only true God, AND Jesus Christ, whom THOU HAST SENT.

Now does that sound like Jesus is speaking of sending himself? He said My Father is greater than I.

That verse says that life eternal is to know God, Jesus' Father as the only true God, and and (in addition to this) to know Jesus Christ.

He said unless we know and believe the truth, love the truth, we will believe a lie and be d**ned.

He said he would reveal these things to us by the Spirit of God that dwells in us.

He did not put it so high that none can understand it. Only because of false doctrine, is it hard to understand; we try to make it fit what we already believe, and it does not; so we say we can not understand it.

Salvation is an ongoing thing; it is not completed until we come out of the grave in a glorified body. Our redeemption DRAWETH NIGH ---means it is not here yet. We wait for the adoption-- to wit---the redeemption of our body. That only happens at the resurrection.

No one Scripture or doctrine is totaly a salvation issue; the whole word of God is.

But, yes, the right foundation has to be there, before we can build our 'house' on it and it stand.

That is what our title means: we must build on the right foundation; and that is what Peter declared; "Thou art the Christ, the SON OF THE LIVING GOD".

Now Jesus declared this to be the true foundation of his church; this revelation of who he is.

Peter did not say You are God;;; he did not say you are the Father; he said you are the SON of God.

Jesus is our Father because he bought us with his own blood; but God is his Father.

He only meant that by his words and works, they could look at him and see the Father; for the Spirit of the Father was in Jesus revealing himself. The Spirit of Jesus is in me revealing himself in me. It does not mean that Jesus is God; and that there is no God other than the man Jesus.

Jo

[Jo Smith]

From: joie Sent: 7/30/2001 10:13 AM
One of the biggest errors of this article is that he sees symbols to be only figuretive speach; with no true meaning. But, that is not the case. God speaks with symbols, but not as an unmeaningful, without truth, thought. This is one of the main reasons for people's failure to get the real truth of the Word of God; they have not found Scriptual meanings for the symbols used. These symbols are not just something drawn out of the air (so to speak) for something less meaningful to say.

No, these symbols all mean something litteral. Every symbol in the Word has another Scripture somewhere else that interprets this symbol. It is not figuretive speach, as such. It is one thing meaning something else, actually.

For instance, the TREE of Life. Do you think that this is not litterally something? In the Word a tree represents a kingdom; a person or a king. Now there may be other meanings; but these are the primary ones.

That Tree of life is the Kingdom of Jesus. Pharaoh is called a young lion, a whale, a river (Eze.32:2).The Assyrian is called a cedar tree (Eze.31:3).

The Tree of knowledge of good and evil is litterally Satan's kingdom.

I guess you never realized that these symbols are all through the Word; but they really mean real things; not just illusive thoughts.

Daniel said the four great 'beasts' were four kings; four kingdoms.

So all through the Word tree, river, beasts these things mean people, kings, kingdoms etc.

So, to try to brush off the real meaning of this parable of the rich man this way is to be so far off the Word it is dangerous.

What did God mean when he said Abraham died and was gathered to his people?

What did it mean when he said the rich man died and in hell HE LIFTED UP HIS EYES? I just fail to see how one in the grave could lift up his eyes and see someone else in their grave.

Just doesn't make any sense.

He said his five brothers were still on this earth; he wanted someone to go witness to them of the horrows of the place where he was right then. If it is only the 'grave' , witnessing to them would not keep them from going there; he wanted them to avoid coming where he was. Brothers and sisters, look at the words of Jesus; not some self- made teacher.

Jesus said this man was in torment WHILE his five brothers were still in this earthly life. He wanted someont to go tell them of the torment he was in (in the grave? , and try to keep them from going where he was. Now, I ask you all, how was witnessing to them going to keep them from dying and going to their grave?

Something here does not make sense, unless you say Jesus was speaking foolishly. To say that this speach of the five brothers is irrevelent to the parable is to say some of Jesus' words are not important or true.

Jo

[Jo Smith]

Acts2:36---Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Now, Bro. Chaz, don't you see that this Scripture says that God made Jesus both Lord and Christ? God made Jesus Christ.

The SAME Jesus whom they had already (past tense) crucified, God made that same Jesus Lord and Christ.

Have you ever read in Isa. 42:1---it speaks of Jesus as being God's servant? You might think it is not speaking of Jesus, but in verses 6-8--He makes it clear that God is speaking to Jesus.

Please read it: v6---I the LORD (God the Father)---have called thee (this is God speaking to Jesus in prophecy)---in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

v7--To open the blind eyes, (who did this other than Jesus?)---to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

(who could this fit other than Jesus?)

v8---I am the LORD: (the Father)---that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Now, people, look at this. It is too plain for you to be mixed up about it. It is God saying to his servant, Jesus, I will not give my glory to any other than you. I will give my praise to none other than you.

When Jesus prayed, Father glorify thou me with the glory I had with thee before the world was, this fulfilled this Scripture in Isa; that God would give his glory to His Son, His Servant, Jesus.

By doing so, God made Jesus both Lord and Christ.

That is tooooooooo plain for you to miss it.!!!!!

Jo