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Post by Jo Smith on Nov 24, 2008 22:44:24 GMT -5
Every one who has a good concordance, look up the word 'deity'. It is not in the whole Word of God! Now, isn't that something, that the MAIN thing people continually hurl at us who know the truth, that Jesus is God's Son, not God himself, is not even in the word? They all scream and scream that Jesus is 'deity'. Well if he is, I ask you why does not the Word of God say so?
How many things do you have to use to prove your lie, that is not in the Word? Many. Trinity- deity- man is God- God is man- God died-God was mortal-God was corruptible-- God was raised from the dead- (by whom?)- God was born from a woman- all alone as God- just 1-just 3- God was incarnate.. God ‘robed himself in human flesh’.. Etc. etc....
‘Incarnate’ is another term used extensively by ‘Jesus is God people’; but it also in not in the whole Scripture. Is it not strange how they have to use so many UNSCRIPTURAL WORDS AND TERMS?
And I do not twist any Scripture; neither do I add to it; neither do I take away from it; I teach it word for word just as it is written in the King James Scripture.
When the Word said 'for God so loved the world, that HE GAVE His only begotten Son‘... that is how God is the Savior- and how Jesus was the savior; God is our Savior in that He gave us Jesus to be our sacrifice for sins; Jesus is our savior in that he obeyed the Father and died for us.
They are said to be 'one'- meaning in total agreement; they do not distinguish themselves as differing- not meaning they are one and the same person-but meaning Jesus does always the things that pleases his Father; they do not ever disagree. Jesus was made to be one with his Father when God gave him all power and authority after his resurrection.
All the Scriptures people think prove otherwise is just because you do not really see what the Word says.
When it says the Word was made 'flesh' and dwelt among us; it is not speaking of the fleshly man. It is speaking of the message Jesus gave us; that is the spiritual flesh (bread) he gave us to eat (understand).
I have posted these thing so many times on many boards, till there is no excuse for people to still not realize where false teachers misled them.
Jo
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Post by Jo Smith on Nov 24, 2008 22:44:54 GMT -5
From: joie Sent: 9/8/2001 10:36 PM
I find it peculiar that out of all that long list of Scriptures you give, lookingup,
that not one of them states that Jesus is God; not one of them states that God
is manifest in three persons. You really should go back, take preconceived ideas
out of your mind (if possible) and carefully read all those Scriptures and ask
yourself where in here does it really say what I think it says.
Just because Jesus is our saviour, does not make him God.
You all need to study the meanings of words such as 'one'; thousand; both; double; ten; twelve; cubics; two; etc. You will be surprissed to find that these words have not one
thing to do with numerals.
God is NOT talking about how many anything! That is what is keeping everyone from
truly understanding the Word of God.
God is not a single person. God is not a 'person'. God is a SPIRIT. A SPIRIT is NOT a MAN!
A MAN is NOT a SPIRIT
God is a KINGDOM. This kingdom has imnumerable beings; all the same God.
But he speaks of ONE because this shows unity.
Jesus was given a place there after His resurrection. He was G I V E N all power in Heaven and earth. He did not possess this before His resurrection.
Who GAVE him this power?
If he were already EQUAL with God, WHY did he have to be GIVEN power?
Jo
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Post by Jo Smith on Nov 24, 2008 22:45:41 GMT -5
that when Collosians says that in Jesus dwells the fullness of the Godhead bodily, this does not mean that Jesus is God. Now, I have taught many times, that Jesus was placed as our God , after he ascended to heaven after his resurrection. That is found in Hebrews chp. one. God gave Jesus all the same power and authority that God himself has. Jesus said, after the resurrection, all power in heaven and earth is GIVEN to me. That is when, as the above very good message states, Jesus was brought into the presence of God and presented to God, God gave Jesus the power and authority of the God kingdom. That is how the power of the Godhead dwells 'bodily' in Jesus. This is not saying that Jesus replaced God; or that there is no longer any power in God. It only says that Jesus was given the same power God has. In the body of Jesus, now in heaven, dwells the power of God. But, this still does not make Jesus to be God; only that he is our God. Also, you need to realize that this only happened AFTER Jesus ascended to heaven; not while he was here on earth.
"Therefore, God, even they God hath annointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows" (human beings). "And let all the angels of God worship him; honour the Son even as you honour the Father".
Now, I wish to show who the 'four' living creatures are. If you will read Rev. 5--you will see this: v6--shows the four beasts in the midst of the elders;
v8--shows the four beasts and the 24 elders falling down before the Lamb;
v9---shows they sing a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast REDEEMED us to God by thy blood OUT OF EVERY KINDRED, AND TONGUE, AND PEOPLE. AND NATION;
v10--And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
This shows that the four living creature (the 4 beasts) (same living creature seen in visions by Eze.)---and the 24 elders are all humans beings out of every people on earth; who were redeemed to God by Jesus.
The four 'faces' show four different stages of Christian life on earth. I have a message on this on my tapes. It is fully described in the tapes. I will try to type this message up and post it here, if and when I have time. But study it on your own. The 'ox' stage is the labouring and self-sacrificing stage of the Christians.
The 'man' face is our developing into the statue of the fullness of the man Christ Jesus.
The 'lion' is our acquiring the ability to go to war without fear, for Jesus.
The 'eagle' face is the last stage; the one where we have waited on the Lord and are given the wings of the 'eagle'. This is a great study. Do not just accept man made teachings; study for the truth; the only to know truth is to find Scriptual interpretations of things.
Please try to lay aside your 'churchs' teachings and just search the Scripture, for in them you think you have eternal life. Don't add thoughts that are not written there; for in so doing, you will only block God from being able to show you the real truth.
Jesus is our God now. But, when he was in human flesh, he was not God. That is why he died and went into hell; to destroy this 'first man Adam' to bring us to the resurrected 'second man Adam'.
Jesus said, I can of mine own self do NOTHING. This was not God talking. The earthly man Jesus was not God. To say He was, is to call human flesh God; or else to deny that Jesus was a human man. Then if you deny that he came in the flesh, you become anti-christ.
The word nowhere says that Jehovah of the OT is Jesus of the new. That is man's added explaination of things they do not understand. I believe you are a sincere believer; therefore I admonish you to really study this subject and pray for God to open it up to you.
Go back and study my message on batpism. You will find that the reason both ways, (which are not really 'ways' of baptism)--are said is that Jesus spake by the 'authority' of God, the apostles spake by the authority of Jesus. This, by Jesus' authority is the only way humans can baptise: for we are under the direct headship of Jesus;; not God the Father. We are not authorized to 'invoke' the name of the Father; only Jesus is authorized to do this.
You can not truly say ' it is 'understood' any thing about the Word of God; you must go exactly by what is written.
Jo
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Post by Jo Smith on Nov 24, 2008 22:46:15 GMT -5
From: joie (Original Message) Sent: 9/7/2001 10:55 PM
11Kings 18:1-4----Hezekiah became King of Judah at the age of 25. He did that which was right in the sight of the LORD.
v4---He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen SERPENT that Moses had made: For unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.
Now, here is an astonishing thing: God had at one time greatly used this 'brasen serpent' on the pole. When the Isralites were being bitten by poison snakes and were dying by the thousands, God had told Moses to make this and place it up. When any of them looked at this serpent on the pole, they would be healed of the snake bite.
But, now, years later, we find that the Isralites had made an idol god of this same brasen serpent. They were burning incense to it. But, when the good king, Hezekiah found out that they were doing this, He broke it to pieces.
Any time God is finished with a thing, to bring it back up and turn back to it, as thought there is some virtue or divinity to it, is to make it into an idol god.
Any move of God, or object (such as the brasen serpent), which God has set aside, and you dote on this, or give place to it as though it is special, it becomes and idol to you.
I tell you, people are causing many to 'worship' an 'idol' in things God used at one time, but then put away. One of the things now, being placed on some boards, is this thing of the Ark of the Covenant. That is nothing but idolarty.
Jesus is the true 'Ark of Covenant'. To idolize this ancient Ark, is sin against God. God no longer uses that: it is of no value since Jesus came. I hope this will help many children of God not to be carried away with this kind of idolatry.
Jo
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Post by Jo Smith on Nov 24, 2008 22:46:31 GMT -5
From: james (Original Message) Sent: 8/28/2001 1:44 AM
Jn 17:1, 3
This is the first of several discussions I posted on another site before I suddenly felt the necessity of leaving. I'd like to test out our ability on this site to discuss an extremely important matter (it means our very eternal lives) as Christians should: with actual documented facts, not just feelings and emotion, and sticking to the subject in a non-abusive manner. I am a non-trinitarian Christian and believe that the Father alone is God and that Jesus alone is our Savior and king, the anointed one, Christ.
So, my trinitarian friends, please explain Jesus' words at John 17:1, 3:
"Father, .... this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." - NRSV.
Please stick to this scripture as the main subject of your replies (if any). It does no good to flood the place with other scriptures that you think prove Jesus is God! I want to know why you cannot accept this scripture as saying the Father is the only true God and Jesus, therefore is not!
From: joie Sent: 8/28/2001 10:52 AM
James,
I am glad to see you bring this post to our board. I truly hope you do not decide to leave us as you said you did the other site. You know that most people can not see the truth of this Scripture in John. They are either deceived into believing the lying trinity doctrine; or the other lie that Jesus is God, and the only one.
Well, I came from both these false teachings; therefore I understand both of these doctrines. I went from the trinity, where I was raised; into the Jesus only teaching. But one day, God spoke directly to me and said, There is a difference in the Father and the Son. The Father is a greater, more powerful being than the Son.
I KNOW God said that to me; not a person; God. His Spirit came to me just as clearly as any person could be, standing right in front of me, and spoke directly to me.
Since then, He has taught me the Word himself. And you know that this matches what Jesus himself said, "My Father is greater than I."
Jesus, himself, spoke this in John 17:3----And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, AND Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
If that is not clear enough for everyone, I just don't know what else to say. This is eternal life; What is eternal life? Knowing the Father, believing what Jesus said; the Father is the only true God; and to know His Son Christ Jesus.
They are one now (not meaning the same being; but Jesus is now seated on the throne of God; meaning He was given the same power and authority as God had).
Jesus is our God; but he is not God the Father. He is ONE with God.
It is a revelation only God can show a person.
May God richly bless the fruit of this thread.
Thank you, again, James for bringing this most important message to this board. I am very glad you joined this community. I do hope you will see fit to stay with us. I like your teachings.
Jo
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Post by Jo Smith on Nov 24, 2008 22:47:03 GMT -5
From: Wanna Sent: 8/30/2001 12:12 PM
Hello James, I am neither trinitarian or oneness but I will answer your question.
John 17:3 This shows us that God the Father is indeed the only true God And that he sent us his Son Jesus through which we can obtain eternal life, if we understand and know this. We must obtain salvation by following the Son we cannot go directly to God the Father for ourselves but we must go through Jesus for he is our mediator.
Now I know all of that is not explained in that one scripture, I just added that part myself. But it certainly is in the word.
Now I have a question. What is wrong with giving explanations of a scripture by quoting another one. For this is the best way. In this I agree with Apostle. For every scripture has another one that can explain it.
This is a very good scripture to debate for it needs to be understood and few people do. Seeing as most people either beleive the trinity teaching or the oneness. I am not a professor or a scholar nor do I desire to be one only to understand and follow Gods words and to help others to understand also. And the best way for us to do that is to discuss it as we are doing.
Wanna
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Post by Jo Smith on Nov 24, 2008 22:47:31 GMT -5
From: joie Sent: 9/14/2001 10:45 PM
Apostle,
You are making some pretty wild claims against Jesus. Never, at any time did he claim to be 'equal' with His Father! If you think he did, please tell us the Scripture; don't just say it.
Read this: John 14:28---......because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
1Cor. 15: 24---Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
v25---For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
v28---And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be SUBJECT unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
In 'equals' one is not subject to the other.
What did Jesus mean when he said, My Father is GREATER than I?
Did you realize that you are suggesting that the Father, a Spirit, is also a human being, capable of dying? That means God the Father is mortal. Is that what you all believe? You really need to see what saying they are 'equals' really means.
For Jesus was human; surely no one can deny that. He died. Do you deny that? Then, if he and the Father were on 'equal ' grounds, this means the Father is also human and mortal and corruptable.
From: joie Sent: 9/16/2001 6:42 PM
Apostle,
You make the same mistake the Jews did: they thought that because Jesus said he was the Son of God, that this made him to be God. That is why they thought He claimed to be God; but this is not the case. Jesus never at any time said He was God.
People think that if God had a 'Son', this had to be God. But, No. Adam was a son of God; but Adam was certainly not God.
God Fathered a Son who was human in all points; else, he could not have been our redeemer.
The jews were the ones saying that Jesus made himself equal with God. Jesus did not say that. You are making the same mistake. You are bearing FALSE witness against Jesus; for he did not claim to be equal to God. You refuse to answer what Jesus meant when he said, My Father is GREATER than I. Why will you not deal with that? Because you are all making the same false witness against Jesus and God that the jews did.
You also misuse the Scripture in Phil. 2: 5-8---to deceive people with as most other men I have heard use this.
The Word says that Jesus took on him the 'FORM' of a 'SERVANT'.
v7---But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
v8--And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Now, this clearly shows that when Jesus was here on earth, he was NOT in the FORM of God. It shows that Jesus was in the form of a servant; fully in the likeness of MEN.
His mind at this time was that of humility; obedience. This is the mind he says to be in us.
So, you are twisting this Scripture to deceive people with. God will not count you guiltless for this error.
YOU are the one thinking like the Jews; who were in error.
Jo
1John4:12-15---No man hath seen God at ANY time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
v13---Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
14---And we have seen and do testify that the FATHER sent the SON to be the Saviour of the world.
15---Whosoever shall confess that JESUS is the SON OF GOD, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
Confess that Jesus is God? NO! Confess that Jesus is the Son OF God,
1John 5:11---And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in HIS SON.
1John 2:22---Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is ANTICHRIST, that denieth the FATHER AND THE SON.
And is a conjunction that joins two things together. Father and Son. Two. When it says they are one means they are in total agreement. As we are all one. the same. equals. not one above another.
To deny the Father as such and the Son as such = a Father and Son relationship is antichrist. So says the Word. Better check up, folks. God bless you all
Having been raised in the trinitiarin doctrin, I understand their thinking. Having later gone into the oneness doctrine, I also understand their thinking. Having been taught by God himself for over 25 years, I now know and can positivily prove that both doctrines are wrong. And that is why all this confusion is on this board. See, no matter which way you go with it, the other side can bring up some thoughts that make the other one seem foolish; for in fact both doctrines are foolish.
When you quote what you think proves the trinity, take note that you are not quoting Scripture, the ONLY source of truth. You are quoting some catholic stuff from way back. They changed all the truth and brought up false doctrine. So , to cling to the trinity is to believe lies.
There is no Scripture saying what either one of you say. There is no Scripture saying that Jesus is fully man and fully God. There is no Scripture saying that there are three persons in the God Head each one co-equal to the other. That is all foolish doctrine; none of it is true to the written Scripture; the only source of truth. You must learn to go exactly by the written word (the King James), if you ever want to know the real truth; not some man-made doctrine. Both teachings are man-made; not Scripture.
When Jesus asked Peter who do you say that I am. What did Peter say? He said, thou art the Christ, the SON OF THE LIVING GOD. Matt. 16:15-19-..
What did Jesus say then? v17---And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.
v18--And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock (that revelation of who he is) I will build my churtch; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Now Jesus said flesh and blood did not reveal that to Peter. Jesus was flesh and blood. He said in John 4:24--God is a spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
The word says God is not a man. The word says in Luke 24:39--Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a SPIRIT hath NOT FLESH AND BONES, as ye see me have.
There you have it. Even after the resurrection, Jesus denyed being a SPIRIT. Said he was flesh and bones.
Now, go back to the talk between Jesus and Peter. He said flesh and blood did not reveal this to you but MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN. Jesus said that Jesus was not the one who revealed this to Peter. The Father a SPIRIT revealed this to Peter. Jesus said that this revelation of who he is is the true foundation of the true church. Anything else is sinking sand. The house built on the other teachings will fall. Only the one built on the knowledge that Jesus, a flesh and blood man, made in all alll all points like unto his brethern, is the SON OF THE LIVING GOD. To say that Jesus is God is not the right foundation. To say that he is the second person in the God head is not the right foundation. They are sinking sand. Jesus is the Son of the Living God; that is the true ROCK.
Jesus said I can of myself do nothing. Was that God talking? No. Jesus said I do always the things that please my Father. Is that God talking? No. The things he did that you say was the God part of him was in actuality, God in him. God dwelling in him. God was IN Christ reconciling the world to himself. God is in us. But we are not God. To say God is three 'persons' is mockery to God. God is not a PERSON. God is a SPIRIT. That is the Word. Not some man's theory.
In 1Cor.15 It says that after Jesus has reigned until all enemies are brought under his feet, he will deliver up the kingdom to God and he himself be subject to God. See, through eternity, Jesus, God's Son will be subject to God, his Father.
1Cor.11: 3---But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ;; and the head of the woman is the man; and THE HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD.
Being the 'head' means the one in authority. So this clearly states that God is in authority over Christ. To deny this, is to call the Word itself a lie.
And there are so many Scriptures proving this, that I could write all night and then some. I may come back later and teach some more on this. But this is enough for now to get you started studing in the right direction, IF you are willing and desire to see the real truth according to the Word of God; not some man-made doctrine. Don't want this to be too long.
God bless you all
JO
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Post by Jo Smith on Nov 24, 2008 22:48:16 GMT -5
From: Wanna Sent: 9/16/2001 11:14 PM
Read in Hebrews 1:--- God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the majesty on high; being MADE SO MUCH BETTER THEN THE ANGELS, as he hath BY INHERITANCE obtained a more excellent name than they.
v5----For unto which of the angels said he at any time, thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee?
v6---And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.
v7--And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
v8---BUT UNTO THE SON he saith, THY THRONE, O GOD, if for ever and ever
v13--But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
To NONE of the angels did he put in that special place at his own right hand; only his Son.
Look at verse6---Let ALL the angels of God worship Jesus. That means Jesus is not one of the angels. He certainly would not have been told to worship himself.
Also, this chapter is all that is necessary to prove to anyone with an open mind that God is talking about His Son. That God appointed Jesus heir of all things. Surely, no one could think this is talking about only one being. Jesus would not have appointed himself heir .If he were God, he would have already owned everything; he would not have had to be 'appointed' anything.
Heb.2:16----Speaking of when Jesus came here: For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. meaning he became total human.
Now one more scripitual proof: in the mouth of one or two witnesses, let every word be established.
Jude 9----Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
This proves Michael is not the risen Jesus; for he would not rebuke satan himself, but said The Lord rebuke you. Lord means Jesus. LORD means the Father. So here he said the Lord = the Son, thus proving Michael and Jesus are two separate beings. The angels are of the spirit world created in the first chapter of Genesis. That is a complete different world from this one. We don't know how it is there. Only what we are told in scripture.
Hope this helps clearify this.
Wanna
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