The 144,000

[Jo Smith]

From: AngelAzul (Original Message) Sent: 1/30/2002 6:45 PM
Any solid information on who the 144,000 really are would be great. I have been told it is a figurative number representing all those who are saved and go to Heaven. I have been told that it is a specific number, referring to the 'Annointed ones' that will rule with Jesus in Heaven (if this is the case, then what happens to the rest of us? Do we remain on Earth forever under Jesus' heavenly rulership?) This also, I believe, relates to the Great Crowd, little flock, and the other sheep. Can I get a distinction of these three? Who is part of the Great Crowd? Who is the little flock? And who makes up the other sheep?

Peace be with all of you,
AngelAzul

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My Answer to her:

From: joie Sent: 1/30/2002 7:42 PM

Hello AngelAzul,

It is so good to hear from you again. Welcome back!!

Wow!!! You have started a good message; and asked quite a few good, questions. May we all find the true answers. Here is some of my answers, given to me by God.:

The Hebrew Dictionary is the one which explains the original meaning of the work thousand.

Now, as I was reading the Word one night, God spoke to (as He does quite often)--and said 'thousand does not mean the number 1,000'. I stopped reading and prayed and asked God 'then what does it mean to you?’ I say this to show you that I did not actually learn this by the concordance. But, when I looked this up, here is what I found:

Heb. # (going from 505, which is given in the listing, it takes you back to 502)

#502---a prim. root, to associate with; hence to learn (and cause to teach): --learn, teach, utter.

So, here the word 'thousand' had the original meaning of 'associating with'; learning--then teaching which is uttering.

#505 takes you back to #504---(which is from #502)---

#504---a family; also (from the sense of yoking or taming) as ox or cow:--family, kine, oxen.

The 'ox' is one of the faces on the four-faced living creature; which represents the Church.

#505---Prop. the same as 504; hence (an ox's head being the first letter of the alphabet, and this eventually used as a numeral) a thousand.

The first letter of the alphabet = the alpha, which is representive of Jesus.

So, see this original meaning of ‘thousand’ refers to the True Church of God, the family of Jesus, the ox head of the Christians (the first stage)--the ones who had learned and were teaching.

The Hebrew of twelve also says to see #505. Twelve x twelve gives the 144 learned and teaching family.

This group is not counted as being the number 144,00 people; it is God's family.


The 144,000 is not meaning that there are only 144,000 people. Now, I know this is going to be hard for people to believe. Things that have never been understood and taught, are not easily accepted. But if you will read this with an open mind; a teachable spirit, you will be able to understand this.
Many times we read with commonly taught misconcepts already in our minds and this causes us to misunderstand what the Word is actually saying. When things were organized and outlined by the false teachers of the sleeper church, these false teachings were picked up and taught by all the churches; so this is already in the minds of people. So when they read these things, they try to make them fit into the 'molds' already set for them. And the truth of the matter is THEY JUST DON'T DO IT.

Please, all who read this, bear with it; do some studying. God will show you , if you open your heart to Him.

First, let me tell you, there is NO DIFFERENCE since Pentecost, in the physical and the spiritual Jew. God does not recognize anyone by the 'flesh' now. We all are the children of God by faith in Jesus. We are all ONE.

You must get this concept, to ever understand the truth of any of the Word. It is very necessary for you to understand this and all the rest of the Word. All the O.T. prophecies that God would regather and graft the Jews back in, were fulfilled at Pentecost. Since then, there is only the Church; no separate nation of the Jews and other peoples. There is only Christians and sinners.

If you have a Strong's Hebrew dictionary, look up the word 'THOUSAND'. Now, honestly before our God, who sees and hears all we do; I did not learn this from that dictionary: I was reading the word, and God said to me "thousand does not mean a number". Before the Holy God, who witnesses this as I write it, I speak the truth; I lie not.

I knew it was God; for He has spoken like that to me for many, many years. So I asked Him, "then what does it mean to you?" I prayed for Him to reveal this to me. For I know that it would be totaly different from anything I had ever heard. Every thing He has ever taught me was that way. Nothing I had ever learned in Church was true. It is all lies.

God showed me that the 144,000 is all His people, since the beginning of time. It is the Holy City. That Hebrew dictionary shows that THOUSAND was not originally a numeral. It meant to LEARN; TO TEACH; TO UTTER; IT MEANT THE MOTHER, THE BOND OF THE FAMILY; IT MEANT THE OX HEAD; WHICH WAS THEIR FIRST LETTER OF THE ALPHABET.

Now, the ox is also the first face on the four-faced living creature; the first stage of Christianity. It came from that 1st letter of their alphabet to have a numerical meaning.

So, Revelation is using the original meanings. Twelve, cubic, and two all have the very same meaning.

The 144,000 is God's people who knew and taught the truth. It does not mean how many.

Surely, you must know that there will be more than 144,000 litteral people saved; in the Holy City.

The CUBITS also means the same thing: hence, the 144 cubits. It is the same as 144 thousand.

See that it said the 12 gates had on them the names of the 12 tribes of Israel. We are Israel. Everyone, out of the O.T. Israel and the N.T. Israel, will be part of this City. The 12 foundations had on them the names of the 12 apostles; does not mean 12 litteral foundations, stacked on top of each other: no, it means the apostles laid the foundation (teaching) of that Holy City, the true Church of the Living God.

It said the foundations were garnished with beautiful stones: that is us; the lively stones Peter said were in that City.

The walls were 144 cubits; it said 12 means to double. It said the length and breath were equal; see, the 12,000 one way doubled; the 12,000 the other side, doubled - the 4-square; but it does not mean like a building design. It is spiritual talk.

All the O.T. people are there; represented by those 12 gates; they were our way into the city. All the N.T. people are there; represented by those 12 foundaitons and stones in them. So, 12 x 12 gives the 144. Therefore, (God showed me this) --it shows that all the saints of all the ages are there; that is the 144, = 12 x 12== God's people who learned and taught the truth. The MOTHER, THE BOND OF THE FAMILY --- WHAT FAMILY? THE FAMILY OF GOD!!!!! WHAT MOTHER? THE NEW JERUSALEM, THE HOLY CITY, IS THE MOTHER OF US ALL. Glory. The truth at last---free from the harlots teachings = every thing made CARNAL. But the truth makes it all SPIRITUAL again.

The earthly city, Jerusalem, was originally the city of Jebus. This is not the original Jerusalem. Jerusalem is actually one of the names of God. Daniel 9:19--....O my God; for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.

Also, 11Cor. 6 shows that both the temple and city of Jerusalem is called by the name of the Lord. When God changed Jabob's name, he called him by his own name. So, Israel and Jerusalem were heavenly names of God. (read v 20, 33)

11Cor. 7:14--My people are called by my name. (v16, -cp.12:13)

So, the new Israel and the new Jerusalem are now the people of God; it has nothing to do with the earthly, natural Jerusalem.

See, this is saying that Jerusalem, thy city, is called by thy name; saying Jerusalem is the name of God.

That is why they sing the SONG OF MOSES =- these were the O.T. people; then they sang the song of THE LAMB = these are the N.T. people; all those who followed the Lamb where ever He led us.

Being undefiled by the women = not being defiled by the sleeper's false teaching; not partaking of her sins (which mainly is these holidays).

Also, departing from the lying TRINITY doctrine: the truth teaches us that TRINITY IS SATAN.

God is ONE.

Jesus called his people by many different type-names. He called us sheep, wheat, corn, cattle, etc. So, I believe the 'great crowd', the little flock, the Holy City, the 144,000, the 'other sheep', the Church, the family of God, the Bride of Christ, the saints, the Holy Ghost filled folks are all the SAME ONES.

It is only different terms used to describe the people of God.

This is one of my favorite studies. I am glad you started this study.

By: Jo Smith

[Jo Smith]

From: joie Sent: 2/1/2002 10:18 PM
Tom:

Please read this:

Rev. 20:4--And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the WITNESS OF JESUS, and for the word of God, and which had not WORSHIPPED THE BEAST, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands: and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

v5---But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the FIRST RESURRECTION.

This shows that those in the FIRST RESURRECTION, had been beheaded for the WITNESS OF JESUS. How did those O.T. Men have the witness of Jesus?

It also shows that they had been killed for NOT worshipping the beast. Also that they had not received his mark. Now, I ask you, when did this happen in the O.T.?

Are you saying that all this about the mark of the beast happened BEFORE the death of Jesus?

If you go back to verse one, it shows that Satan was bound in the bottomless pit; to deceive the nations no more, just prior to this first resurrection. It shows that those in this first resurrection, live and reign on this earth for the thousand years of peace. I thought those MEN who were resurrected with Jesus, ascended back to Heaven with Jesus. That is what you told us. How then did they live and reign here on this earth. How is it that Satan is STILL deceiving the nations---- if this has already occured.

Paul said those who claim that the resurrection is PAST already, that their word is as a canker.

If you will read Rev. 19:7 & 8---you will find that the Bride of Christ has just now (at that time) made herself ready for the marriage.

Now, if his bride was resurrected and carried to heaven with Jesus, how is it that she is still here, just now, at the end of all this happening in Rev. Just now made herself ready? HUH!!! Something just does not add up here!!!

Read Rev. 22:2---In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the TREE OF LIFE, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded HER fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

UH OO!!! The tree of life a HER !!!!

Now, what about that?

And you are telling us that this bride is alll MEN?

v17---And the Spirit and the BRIDE say, come.

Now, this shows this female BRIDE is saying Come. Yet you say the female cannot say a thing.

Something is wrong here. And it is not the Word.

Tom, did you forget that the Word says that the Church is His BODY.

When it spoke of his dead BODY rising, how do you know it is not talking of the rising of the Church?

Jo, (the one who cannot teach)

[Jo Smith]

Tom, God DOES speak to me. How can you suggest that God does not speak to his daughters? Why would a Father ignor his daughters? I tell you it is not true. God is a loving Father; not just to his sons; but to his daughters. If we WE women, be led of the Spirit, we are SONS of God. It means he sees us as ONE.

In the day that he created them, He called their name Adam . The human race is Adam.

Every time God says 'man' or 'sons' or any such term, he is not meaning just the male of the species. He means the whole race of man-kind.

Else, how did you, or any other MAN get to be 'bride' to Christ? YOu said his bride was all men ---(where is a Scripture saying such a thing?) How do you get it that Jesus marries only 'men'. Where do you think women fit in at? Do you think we are just slaves or something? It sure sounds like it.

And if this were true, I ask you why did Jesus call his Bride a female? Why did he say the tree of life is a female? I really think you need to pray and do some more serious studying. Ask God to open your 'eyes'. Although I suspect that you do not want any eye opening --- if it includes seeing that God does not hate us women; that he does speak to us and let us teach his word.

Jo

[Jo Smith]

Tom, you said in one post that the 144,000 is the O.T. men who were raised with Jesus. You said these are the Bride of Christ. You said in another post that none of us could be in the first resurrection. Then by this you are saying that none of us can be in the Bride of Christ. I fail to see that Jesus took his bride out of the O.T.

Then, if N.T. Christians are not Bride; cannot be in the first resurrection, where do we fit? In what resurrection do we come up in? How many resurrections do you see?

You did not answer my question as to how did those in the first resurrectin be killed for refusing the Mark of the Beast. You need to do some more studying into this. I think you have gotten very mixed up.

If the first resurrection took place at the time Jesus came up, and there is nothing more to the first one, that would place all since then to be in the second resurrection--- is that how you see it? If so, how is it that Rev. shows one before the 1,000 years of peace, and one after that time?

That would make three. I did not know that the Word teaches three.

God does speak to women in Grace. This is so important for all to see. He does not see any difference in anyone under grace. The word clearly teaches this. You are still trying to separate what Jesus made ONE.

Now, I wish to change the subject a bit. This thing you said about Jesus being the first born or begotten from the dead--- I wonder ---if you and others realize that this shows very clearly that the new birth happens when we come out of that grave in a glorified body?

Believing on Christ now, asking forgiveness of sins, even Receiving the Holy Ghost is NOT the new birth.

Go to Hosea 13:13--The sorrows of a travailing woman shall come upon HIM: (isn't this strange---a man in childbirth?) (don't you just LOVE God's Word?) he is an unwise son; for he should not stay long in the PLACE OF THE BREAKING FORTH OF CHILDREN.

Now, what is this place of the breaking forth of children?

v14---I will ransom them from the power of the GRAVE; I will redeem them from DEATH; O death, I will be thy plagues: I grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

There you have it! Coming forth out of the grave is giving childbirth = the new birth.

See, how this fits the thing of Jesus being the FIRST BORN FROM THE DEAD?

JO

[Jo Smith]

From: joie Sent: 2/2/2002 6:08 PM

Now, Tom, I want to do some reasoning with what you have said. You stated that the 144,000 are all men; men who are 'virgins'. By this, I assume that you mean they never married and had children. Is that what you mean?

You also said that they come out of the O.T. days. So, who are the 144,000 men from the O.T. who never married? You cannot guess--- you cannot assume anything of teaching the Word; you must find where the word clearly shows a thing; or you are teaching lies.

I go back to the O.T. in my mind: I know that all the important, Holy men back there were MARRIED MEN.

All the kings married; wanted to have sons to succeed them.

All the prophets married; same reason.

All the priests married; for the next priest had to be a son. It followered in the family. (this clearly puts the old Catholic priesthood out of God's plan).

So, I ask you, where did this group of a litteral 144,000 virgin MEN come from?

12,000 from each of the 12 tribes---- when did this group of men live---when were they dedicated to
God--- There are just too many unanswered questions to this line of thinking.

But, if you know this is true, then please show this community and me, the Scripture which showed you this revelation.

Now, I will explain the virgin men:

The word calls the church a woman---- a female. (this includes all the men and boys in the church--they are all women) (so ,lol, guess this means none of them can teach)-

anyway,--God is speaking here, not of individuals, (surely you all can see this?)---but of two groups of people in the world--- of these two groups---he said two women shall be grinding together ===the true Chruch, Jerusalem; and the sleeper, false church, Babylon;

Now, he called his chosen ministers, whom he annointed with power from on high by the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, he called them the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. Rev. 14:4.

Paul called themselves the firstfruits or a kind of firstfruits.

No where, I repeat, No where in chapter 7 or 14, does God say these are all male people. Show me if you think he did. Just because he said they are not defiled with women, does not mean that this is a group of all men. Unmarried men, at that. No!

When he said not defiled with 'women' he is NOT speaking of physical adultry. He is speaking of Spiritual adultry with the sleeper churches.

He called the churches women. He called the true church a woman. A wife. then false church, a sleeper.

So, to say these people were not defiled with women--- is the same as when he said they follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. Means, they were true to Jesus; did not partake of the sins of Babylon. Were not defiled with her abominations; her idols. We stayed true to Jesus and did not worship Santa, Satan, easter bunnies, groundhogs, etc, etc. We are virgins to Jesus. Me. Us female Christians. Like it or not.

This group of people include all God's true people. That great host of people who came in under their teachings, is also part of this group. It is not how many. Study the original meaning of the word 'thousand'. It did not have a numerical meaning originally. It meant the Mother, the teaching and learning. So, it means those men and women who learned and taught the truth; and Mothered children to God.

Paul said, I travail in birth again; till Christ be formed in you. Paul, a man, in child birth. Better start seeing the Word as Spiritual. You will forever be in the darkness, of carnal mind if you do not.

JO

[Jo Smith]

From: joie Sent: 2/3/2002 2:01 PM
Tom, where did you get that 144,000 men lived spotless before God in the O.T.? Especially out of that old Jewish nation? God said they were a stiff-necked, hard-hearded, rebellious bunch of people. They were so bad, that God came to dispise them. He put them away forever.

You are terribly mixed up.

No one could be without fault e.s. no guile in their mouth BEFORE Jesus filled us with the Holy Ghost and washed us white in His blood. So, this proves that they HAD to be N.T. Christians.

It is not speaking of their having been perfect ALL their lives: it means AFTER Jesus made us CLEAN; WHITE.

Tom, AFTER one becomes a blood-washed, Holy Ghost filled Christian, THEN they are spotless, then they are NO LONGER considered to be a GENTILE. In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile -- In Christ we are all new creatures = those without fault --- without guile--- for He sanctified us forever. Brother , WE the blood-washed, Jesus cleansed ones are those pure, undefiled, Virgins to Christ.

Christians are the true Jews. (Romans 2:28,29)

It is NOT speaking of 'human' virginity; ( our bodies) it means true to Jesus.
Who do you think those five wish virgins are?

You really do need to do some serious praying and LISTENING to someone God has shown truth to. You are in total darkness.

Jo

[Jo Smith]

From: joie Sent: 2/3/2002 8:49 PM
There is so much to answer to here tonight; but I am tired, I just finished typing up my new message.
Tom, You really do need to stop and at least read the things I have given you out of the word of God. You are very, very mixed up.

The predestination does not mean that God chose some to be saved, before they lived. It is speaking of, at the time of the resurrection, if he KNEW you , before that day, If He put His Spirit into you, before the day of the resurrection--- then he also justified you, and glorified you. There was NO justification before Jesus died.
The one prophecied of in Jeremiah, was Jesus. Jesus is the one he knew in the womb; also John.

Did you ever hear of PROPHECY? All these things you are mixed up about are PROPHECY. That is why you are not getting it straight--- you are seeing it in the past---but it is prophecy---for a later day.

I cannot explain it tonight; too tired.

Richard, You need to find my message on who are the Jews. If I can I will bring it back to the front page.
You are looking to the fleshly people. God cast away the fleshly people; he said we know no one now after the flesh.
Are you thinking That God puts more to those rebellious fleshly people, than to the blood-bought, Holy Ghost filled Church? THis is a great deception. Paul said they are NOT the children of God. He said we are the true Jews.

I am too tired to show you much tonight.
I did not mean to ignor your message on the resurrection: I am trying to get something together about all that. It is not just as the church has taught you. But, it is a lot to do. I do not have time for it right now.

I will try soon, to put an answer there. It is a deep subject.

Jo

[Jo Smith]

From: Candlelight (Original Message) Sent: 2/5/2002 5:44 PM
GOD THE EVERLIVING made a very specific covenant (promise) to Jacob-Israel. GOD THE EVERLIVING will NEVER break a covenant. What happened to the 12 Tribes of Israel, and why do we say today that 10-1/2 Tribes are "Lost"? Who or where are the 1-1/2 Tribes that are not "Lost"?

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My reply to that person:

From: joie Sent: 2/5/2002 6:14 PM
Why are YOU so concerned about those 'fleshly' people? Why do you DENY the work of Jesus to take of the twain and make one new man = the true church, thus making peace?
Why do you refuse the Word which said there is NO DIFFERENCE in the Jew and the Greek?
Why do you refuse that Jesus said the flesh profitheth NOTHING.
WhY do you not see that Peter wrote to the Chosen; the Holy Peculiar people whom he said in 1Peter 2: 9 and 10--were the people who once were not a people, meaning the Gentiles?

Read it:
But ye are a CHOSEN generation, a ROYAL PRIESTHOOD, an HOLY NATION, a peculiar people; that ye should show froth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
v10--Which IN TIME PAST were NOT A PEOPLE, but are NOW THE PEOPLE OF GOD: which had NOT obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

This is the fulfillment of Hosea 1:10---Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be mesured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, (the children of Israel)- Ye are NOT MY PEOPLE, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

v11---Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered TOGETHER, and appoint themselves ONE HEAD, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezree.

Now read this: Romans 9:23-- And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
v24--Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

v25--As he saith also in Osee (Hosea)--(above Scripture)---I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

v26---And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are NOT my people; there shall they be called the CHILDREN OF THE LIVING GOD.

Now, community, read and learn truth here!! Not everyone saying I am sent of the spirit of God, carry truth. the only truth is that which is written in the Word of God.

All these Scriptures call the Gentiles the people of God, the chosen, the Holy Nation, the Jews, the Israelites. Because, in Christ, there is NEITHER JEW NOR GENTILE, THERE IS NEITHER MALE NOR FEMALE;

When can you accept this truth? When can you stop trying to SEPARATE what Jesus joined together?
Look at the above Scripture--- they will join together = Jew and Gentile made into ONE NEW MAN = THE CHURCH--- and appoint themselves ONE HEAD. Who is this one head? It is Jesus. He is the HEAD of this one new man. In it, there is neither Jew nor Gentile.

There is only one tribe of Israel now ---that is the tribe of Judah = Jesus = Jesus' children. It has not one thing to do with what a person is in the flesh. No one knows where or who those fleshly people are; and it matters not. Unless they come into the true Church = the body of Jesus; by his shed blood, they are children of Satan and headed for hell.
~~ TRUTH~~